Curse

TalanRoarer · Apr 03, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Hi Mol, first of id like to say nice to see ya around GWs and guru again (:

Secondly, I believe that both proactive and reactive hexes can both be used as effectively as the other in PvE. In my opinion neither is 'clearly' better, it's all about how you use them.

Also i'd like to ask all those flaming Moloch about the way in which he wrote this thread, for the benefit of interested readers lets stay on subject?

JONO51 · Apr 03, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

While I can see where your trying to go with this, I dont think its right to say reactive hexing is useless. Most people are taking things like enfeebling blood and aegis with them in pve, so why not take advantage of the fact that mobs are hitting for 10dmg and missing half the time and get a free 30+ damage out of SS? Yes, you can kill mobs in mere seconds, but this almost always requires a tank nuke type set up (just with a "tank" that deals damage :P). In general HM, pretty much what i always end up doing is locking on and killing the nasty catsers or whatever first, while SS or VoR together with minions works on the rest.

What I'm trying to say is that nobody uses reactive hexing as a primary source of damage, its almost always just a secondary bonus form. So as I've said, why not take advantage of all that defense you bring anyway and put it to use? :P

Skyy High · Apr 03, 2009, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Second, and at least as important: your examples are all situational. Can Empathy create damage? Of course it can! So can SS! Clump up all the Aatxes in the chamber, cast Spiteful, and the damage is godly. Throw Empathy on a Barrage ranger, and again, the damage is great. But it's all up to the enemy.

When you go with your friends and cast Barbs on a target, provided you can make it stick (not that hard), the damage is ALWAYS godly.

That's what makes this type of build superior. It doesn't rely on your enemies, it relies on your friends.

If we're talking about PvE here, I think you're too quickly glossing over something vitally important, which is that in PvE, you don't "rely" on your enemies doing something...you know they're going to do something. You say that the "best way" to kill something is to "hammer it into the ground until it's dead". Is it? How do you know that? If a mob of monsters will kill themselves under SS, Empathy, Backfire, VoR, and a host of other reactive hexes, every time you cast that sequence on them, then that's a reliable way to kill them, regardless of whether they're doing it to themselves or not. There is essentially no difference between a hex doing x damage per second through degen, and empathy doing y damage per second because the enemy's an idiot and killing himself, except that y > x.

Furthermore, your point seems to be that good players can would be able to steamroll an area faster with proactive hexes and team synergy than a bunch of reactive hexes, summarily dismissing tank-and-spank from the discussion...but if CoP spiking can clear DoA faster than your meticulously built team, with far less effort and with less skill involved, is it even worth discussing the merits of proactive hexing?

Shursh · Apr 03, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If we're talking about PvE here, I think you're too quickly glossing over something vitally important, which is that in PvE, you don't "rely" on your enemies doing something...you know they're going to do something. You say that the "best way" to kill something is to "hammer it into the ground until it's dead". Is it? How do you know that? If a mob of monsters will kill themselves under SS, Empathy, Backfire, VoR, and a host of other reactive hexes, every time you cast that sequence on them, then that's a reliable way to kill them, regardless of whether they're doing it to themselves or not. There is essentially no difference between a hex doing x damage per second through degen, and empathy doing y damage per second because the enemy's an idiot and killing himself, except that y > x.

Furthermore, your point seems to be that good players can would be able to steamroll an area faster with proactive hexes and team synergy than a bunch of reactive hexes, summarily dismissing tank-and-spank from the discussion...but if CoP spiking can clear DoA faster than your meticulously built team, with far less effort and with less skill involved, is it even worth discussing the merits of proactive hexing?

the main difference between reactive and proactive hexing in regards to the mob itself is the speed of kills - proactive hexing kills much faster and lends itself to target focus for taking down healing monks and hard-hitting ele's first - BEFORE they can either heal their friends or 1-hit-kill one of your team members.

CoP/tanknspank is a totally different type a team setup. the reactive/proactive hexing argument is concerned only with random "balanced" groups. everybody knows how effective CoP DOA speedclears are.

Saraneth · Apr 03, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

You are basically saying that skills Anet introduced into the game are not worth using.

Perhaps, he's searching for more of a balance between the two, instead of the reactive hex cluster-RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO grps we've had for ages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

In a sense, I get the impression you are telling us YOUR playstyle is the only one worth using. Knockdowns and AP hexing (which is effective). I'd prefer to play well and with builds I enjoy.

It's difficult to enjoy a class when most of the work is coming from the monsters, and not the player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

Its just as important to present your argument in a respectful manner when you talk about other people as it is to have the correct information. Attitude.

Take your pity party elsewhere, it has no bearing on this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

You seem to belittle people you dont even know for using reactive skills. You presume that people who use these skills arent as good as you. Its extremely arrogant.

Reactive hex users tend to belong to the T&S side of pve, which typically isn't as 'good' as physway grps and the like. This sentiment is expressed in the post below:

_

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

And as a side not, MoP and Barbs are strong only if you're coordinated. I'd rather take reactive hexes in a pug and proactive hexes in a coordinated team or when I'm H/Hing.

Did someone say pugs were bad? >: 0~

Ratson Itamar · Apr 03, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I didn't say that pug were bad, even though I think that. 99.9% of the pugs that I were in didn't follow my call, at best they followed someone else's and thus making MoP and Barbs useless.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 03, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Feast of corruption is one that's need a buff to play proactive curser.

Aye, more skills that encourage proactive hexing would be better. Atm, FoC is more or less a dead skill like Smiter's Boon (PvP). Usable, but not worth it.

An idea for AP is to nerf it to be "All your Assassin Skills Recharge" - knocking out the Necromancer and the PvE-only skill build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

You are basically saying that skills Anet introduced into the game are not worth using. It is about play style more than what is actually effective.

That's not what I got out of it. What I got out of it is that the amount and power of reactive hexes basically means that it's just becoming the caster version of c-space. It would just be tab-1*or whatever skill number you have*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I have played on teams in PvE that used Reactive Hexes that did extremely well, even in elite missions like The Deep and UW. I have also played on PvE teams that did extremely well with Proactive Hexes in those same areas.

Both Reactive hexes and Proactive hexes are powerful, but Reactive are more powerful, not due to the damage, but because they require little effect, cast on that target done until it's off for the most part. Especially in HM - where there is an increased attack speed, increased movement speed, decresed casting time, and decreased recharge time. Therefore making reactive hexes more powerful, especially since most are armor ignoring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

In a sense, I get the impression you are telling us YOUR playstyle is the only one worth using. Knockdowns and AP hexing (which is effective). I'd prefer to play well and with builds I enjoy.

Again, I don't see that, but instead him saying the "cookie cutter" builds which are the "meta" of PvE because they make things so easy and don't get nerfs. Like Ursan did for a while, and Perma SF is doing now.

Reactive hexes are powerful, and as such are used by both good and bad players, just because it makes things easier. Proactive hexes are still good, and are, for the most part, on equal footing with reactive hexes in NM, but in HM they are outclassed because of the enemies' "buffs."

This is what I get out of the argument, but that could be because I skimmed the argument, which is most likely biased. But, hey, everything is.

IMO, the best thing to do is to get rid of places like PvXwiki. They allow too many "easy mode" builds and those builds eventually become the meta. And because of that, people call others sucky, noobs, or whatever for not using the "meta" of PvE. And those that hate "cookie cutter builds" will call those who use them sucky, noobs, or whatever their choice of words are.

The only builds I agree with being up are builds meant to be part of guides, not easy mode.

MagmaRed · Apr 03, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Well, since I know how to use 'reactive hexes' and am good with them, and enjoy using them, I'll continue to use them. When I run SS, I usually do so with a team consisting of an MM, interrupt (Mesmer or Ranger), and hench. I take some of your 'proactive hexes' along as well, because as you stated, they are effective. I don't use 'tank and spank', but I do enjoy seeing a screen filled with 37s or 41s.

It is more about how you use them then what you are using. Pain Inverter is the only reactive hex I won't use. Reason is because it only does its damage when my team takes damage. I prevent that damage, not invert it. But skills like SS, Empathy, VoR, etc. can be used against monsters that will trigger them for damage, and cause little to no damage to my team.

snaek · Apr 03, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

why does reactive hexing suck?
because pve is easy and ai is dumb

pvp side, reactive hexing sees the most play in ra/ta.
gvg dom mes isnt as popular as it used to be and lol @ the olschool gvg ss necs.
ha is too much of a mess for me to care bout.
hb? oh do people actually fight in hb?

for both sides:
its not that reactive hexing sucks. its just that it has become almost pointless when you can just spike the ish out of things instead.

talisk3 · Apr 03, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

If [spiteful spirit] isn't good, is [assassin's promise] the only good elite to synergy with curses?

Shursh · Apr 03, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisk3

If [spiteful spirit] isn't good, is [assassin's promise] the only good elite to synergy with curses?

[Spiteful Spirit] IS good...it's just that there are much better options. [Assassin's Promise] is one of them, and i almost always run that over anything else, unless i am forced to change to a different secondary.

faraaz · Apr 03, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Well, going through Moloch's posts, its like he's saying what I would if I had the time or the patience.

However, one point I want to stress to everyone trying to defend reactive hexing as primary damage output means is this:

[Spiteful Spirit] has a damage cap in terms of how fast an enemy attacks. You can increase it by using [Reckless Haste], but beyond that, there's not much else you can do.

[Mark of Pain] has absolutely no damage cap. [Animate Bone Minions], [Hundred Blades], [Locusts Fury] [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] (+ [Arcane Echo]) ... the sky is the limit. And this is the essential point:

[Spiteful Spirit] is limited by how fast the enemy will attack. He WILL attack in PvE, he WILL take damage, but that damage will be a multiple of his number of attacks which is CONSTANT. Again, in case you missed it the first time...it is CONSTANT!

With [Mark of Pain], the damage is variable, and this is where a good player comes in. If you are good, you squeeze more 42s off than if you are bad. Simplest way I can put it.

Chthon · Apr 04, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

1. I completely agree with everything Moloch has posted in this thread.

2. The one thing that's missing in the OP is proper emphasis on this point: The damage per second you can get out of proactive hexes by using them reasonably well far, far, far, far exceeds he damage per second you can get out of reactive hexes, even if they are used perfectly. Let me dsay that more simply: Proactive hexes do more damage faster than reactive hexes possibly can. Period. Or, as faraaz explains:

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Well, going through Moloch's posts, its like he's saying what I would if I had the time or the patience.

However, one point I want to stress to everyone trying to defend reactive hexing as primary damage output means is this:

[Spiteful Spirit] has a damage cap in terms of how fast an enemy attacks. You can increase it by using [Reckless Haste], but beyond that, there's not much else you can do.

[Mark of Pain] has absolutely no damage cap. [Animate Bone Minions], [Hundred Blades], [Locusts Fury] [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] (+ [Arcane Echo]) ... the sky is the limit. And this is the essential point:

[Spiteful Spirit] is limited by how fast the enemy will attack. He WILL attack in PvE, he WILL take damage, but that damage will be a multiple of his number of attacks which is CONSTANT. Again, in case you missed it the first time...it is CONSTANT!

With [Mark of Pain], the damage is variable, and this is where a good player comes in. If you are good, you squeeze more 42s off than if you are bad. Simplest way I can put it.

(For the record, and to make reactive hex fans feel better: Things were not always this way. Back in Prophecies the direct damage options were so much weaker that SS really was some of the best damage available. Then came power creep...)

3. You, REDdelver, do not know what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

This seems to be more or less a thread essentially about SABWAY vs DISCORDway. I know you didnt say anything about discord, but "essentially" this is how it come across.

No. It's about the fundamental, abstracted mechanics of a reactive status effect vesus a proactive status effect. Moloch explains the general reasons that explicate a general rule applicable to all reactive and proactive status effects, even those that don't exist.

Also, for the record, I'm relatively sure that Moloch never uses sabway or discordway. I'm sure he understands that, while "effective enough," they are pretty mediocre compared to better-designed team builds. And I've seen him field (much) better team builds.

Quote:

You presume that people who use these skills arent as good as you. Its extremely arrogant.

Having seen Moloch in action in-game, I can say that, if you take Moloch and any other random person, there's a very strong statistical likelihood that the other person isn't as good as him.

The fact that Moloch happens to be very, very good at GW aside, there's another reason your argument is wrong: People who make poor skill choices tend to be worse players than those who make good skill choices. That should be obvious, almost tautological. Basically you're exhibiting "snowflake syndrome" here and getting irrationally upset at someone making a well-reasoned argument why a class of builds that happens to include your very own unique snowflake happens to suck. I'm sorry, but reactive hexes do suck, and insisting on using them for your primary damage does makes you worse player than people who have the good sense to move over to proactive hexes.

4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

... summarily dismissing tank-and-spank from the discussion...but if CoP spiking can clear DoA faster than your meticulously built team, with far less effort and with less skill involved, is it even worth discussing the merits of proactive hexing?

[edit: My thinking in this section warranted some cleaning up. Re-written.]

Comparing proactive hexing to tank-n-spank is comparing apples and oranges. Proactive hexing is a skill-selection choice, a damage-skill-selection choice to be specific. Tank-n-spank is a tactic. The proper comparisons to draw are "proactive hexes versus CoP" (damage-skill-selection choice versus damage-skill-selection choice) and "tank-n-spank versus 'dualitity'" (tactic versus tactic). After all, you can use proactive hexes with tank-n-spank tactics; and you can use CoP with "duality" tactics.

Neither of those comparisons is really at issue in this thread. "Tank-n-spank versus 'dualitity'" has been discussed to death, and what's been said before is just as true now. "Proactive hexes versus CoP" hasn't been discussed much, but it's not the topic of this thread. If you want to hear my thoughts very briefly, here they are: First, insofar as foes can be kept adjacent, proactive hexes kill faster; insofar as they cannot, CoP kills faster. Second, proactive hex builds get along better with robust defensive builds (ex: imbagon) than do CoP builds. Third, proactive hex builds get along better with unskilled teammates (so long as they're not so dumb they can't follow targets), heroes, and hench than CoP builds.

Hatchet Child · Apr 04, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The fact that Moloch happens to be very, very good at GW.

I wish he would just play a lot more

8/10 people who have Replied to this thread are taking it either as a personal attack on the way they play the game or didn't read Moloch's post or skimmed it. If you did skim it i suggest you go back and Read it properly.

I Said this was gonna happen when he was talking about posting it

Hugh Manatee · Apr 04, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Maybe a dumb question, but if [Mark of Pain]'s range is adjacent don't you need a tank to bottle neck them, then spank accordingly? Just sems like the same tactic AP,+glyph sac met shower nukers have used forever, but with necroes. I was trying this out in the sepulchre of draggimar earlier and only got the full benefit of MoP like maybe 3 times when stuff had to come around a corner, barbs was much more useful.

Also, I get the damage potential, but there's like maybe a handful of bosses that need to or even can be hit that hard without it being total overkill, however there's lots of stuff that can 1 shot you and tends to swarm, like djinn+ethers, stuff with big AoE booms, and stuff what doesn't like to clump up and won't give you the 3-5 seconds it takes to set up MoP>EVAS>AP. Seems just as viable and easier to make the party invincible in one of the many ways you can do so, let them all kill themselves in an orgy of their own stupidity.

Hatchet Child · Apr 04, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Tank not Required.

[You move like a dwarf] Should knock them down long enough for you to do a stupid amount of damage to the target. Then [Finish him!]

faraaz · Apr 04, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

And that is also why you bring [Assassin's Promise], because you dont HAVE to bottleneck groups and do 42s enough to warrant the long-ish recharge of MoP. YOu just spam that shit every 5 seconds on everything.

Bobby2 · Apr 04, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Target switching. Multiple MoPs in effect at once = epic lulz. AP over SS anyday

_Nihilist_ · Apr 04, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

SS kills any Physical damage output you have. Why? Your Physicals can't attack the Hexed foe, or else you've wasted time and energy because you didn't get the full duration + effect of SS.

Proactive Hexing w/ the use of MoP + Barbs increases your Physicals' damage output, and with AP on the target as well, your next target gets like treatment.

I don't know about you, but I generally have some type of Physical in my Party most of the time. Wasting that potential damage source is extremely inefficient.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 04, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchet Child

Tank not Required.

[You move like a dwarf] Should knock them down long enough for you to do a stupid amount of damage to the target. Then [Finish him!]

So that's 1 guy, but won't the rest move away? MoP only hit adjacent, it doesn't hit the guy it's been hexed with.